I know we did this a little while ago, but an update might be fun
I think I have listed the main contenders.
If ‘other’ please name the chateau and why…it could be another second growth like Leoville Barton…or an ‘honorary super second’ third growth like Chateau Palmer…or even a fifth growth like Lynch Bages, which we are all agreed is a ‘super second’ in all but name
Last edited by Comte Flaneur on Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I opted for Leoville Lascases reflecting my innate conservatism. But I had to think long and hard about whether the mantle should now go to Pichon Lalande or Montrose given the stunning wines they are producing.
I haven't drunk any of these wines in vintages past 2009, so I have to abstain. But I do find it interesting that you do not mention La Mission Haut Brion.
stefan wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 3:14 pm
I haven't drunk any of these wines in vintages past 2009, so I have to abstain. But I do find it interesting that you do not mention La Mission Haut Brion.
Good spot stefan.
In my opinion it does not qualify and is more a de facto first growth than a super second, but of course that is a matter of opinion. That opinion is based at least partly on La Mission being in the top three in our series of first growth dinners since 2018 with Lafite and Cheval Blanc.
LMHB is priced like a high end super second instead of a first growth, which is interesting. The market doesn't seem to see it as being as reliable or prestigious as the first growths.
The other interesting case is Palmer, which is of course a third growth but is priced at the very top of the second growths or in some cases in a kind of space between super seconds and first growths.
If you just looked by price, LLC-Palmer-LMHB make up another category that is sort of in between super seconds and first growths. Ducru is trying to join that price range but can't quite seem to do it.
I have to separate between which is the best wine vs which is my favorite wine.
Leoville Las Cases is a great wine when it's "on" but I've been left looking for more on too many occassions. The Pichons are my personal favorites and a flavor profile that hits all my senses. Cos is turning out some great wines that I won't live long to enjoy and have loved many vintages. But for consistantly producing a stand-out wine virtually every vintage I have to give the nod to Montrose
Montrose, Ducru and one of the Pichons to round out my top 3.
And Izak, while I don’t disagree with you I think whether choosing to use Pichon Comtesse or Pichon Lalande most professionals would realize that one is talking about the same property. With that said, if one were to post the abbreviation of ‘PC’ referring to a Bdx estate, I would automatically think of Pontet Canet before Pichon Comtesse and for the latter, I would be inclined to us the more widely used abbreviation of PL or PLL both of which relate to Lalande so 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
I'm curious to hear where GBF comes down on the 2019/2020 phenomenon, which to me has been a major story that has snuck up on us. I'm just so bowled over by the quality of these vintages and the accessible pricing.
Here in the UK - a country that still punches above its weight in terms of global influence and soft power, especially in the wine market (and in spite of Brexit) - we refer to Pichon Lalande as Pichon Lalande.
Some times I and others refer colloquially to '(The) Comtessa' especially when comparing to the ' (The) Baron' across the road…but back to my original point here is an extract from an email that the top British merchant Farr Vintners sent out this morning (scroll down to Pichon Lalande)
“Following the release of the right bank big guns Figeac and La Conseillante this morning, the 2023 en primeur campaign is now virtually complete. It’s a very good vintage to be sure, released at significant discounts by most châteaux in difficult trading conditions. The prices of many wines are interesting, but simply not compelling enough to justify purchase en primeur.
With our final e-mail of the campaign, we highlight a dozen wines that we think offer the best value in this vintage at all price points.
Montlandrie: £164 per dozen – this emerging star of the Castillon appellation could be the finest wine produced here since the Durantou family’s first vintage in 2009. A 92-94 rating from Neal Martin puts it firmly in the same league as wines that sell at two, three or even four times the price.
Tronquoy: £198 per dozen – this property sits next to Montrose and is under the same ownership. Quality has soared in the last decade and it has out-performed in blind tastings of recent vintages. Like Montrose, this is a big success in 2023, but at a very modest price. Neal Martin’s 93/95 point score ranks it the equal of, for example, Gruaud Larose. It’s easy to do the maths here.
De Fieuzal: £240 per dozen – a change of winemaking here has made de Fieuzal one of Bordeaux’s most improved châteaux, but the price remains extremely modest. With a 94-96 Wine Advocate score, it equals the rating of Mouton Rothschild at less than 6% of the price..
Batailley: £324 per dozen – a classed growth Pauillac at a lower price than any other vintage with excellent ratings. This has to be one of the bargains of 2023. Neal Martin gives Batailley the same score this year as La Mission Haut Brion.
Léoville Barton: £672 per dozen – this classic second growth is always a wine to buy en primeur thanks to the owners’ modest pricing policy. This year is no exception and, incredibly, it is £1,000 per dozen cheaper than neighbour Lascases with the same Wine Advocate rating (and it is rated even higher by our own Thomas Parker MW).
Léoville Poyferré: £674 per dozen – this year Poyferré is “a contender for the best Saint-Julien in show” writes Neal Martin, yet the Cuvelier family have made a big effort on price to bring it to the market at less than half the price of its “super-second” rivals.
Lynch Bages: £840 per dozen – one of the classics of Bordeaux and a great Lynch once again. This is priced at below any other vintage of this château in the market today to make it a clearly attractive purchase to the en primeur buyer. “Excellent” is the judgement of both Neal Martin and James Suckling.
Les Carmes Haut Brion: £912 per dozen – Bordeaux’s most exciting property right now and it outscores Haut Brion itself in the Wine Advocate with a 97/99 point rating.
Canon: £1,074 per dozen – fighting it out with the other big names for top spot in St Emilion but still priced way below its rivals. This has a potential 100 points from two of the leading critics and is one third the price of Angélus with equal or better ratings from everyone.
Pichon Lalande: £1,320 per dozen – huge ratings for Pichon Lalande rate it the equal of the first growths including 97/99 from the Wine Advocate. A magnificent Pauillac
Montrose: £1,428 per dozen – rated a potential 100 points by three critics, this wine doesn’t just match the first growths, it beats them.
Eglise Clinet: £2,508 per dozen – Neal Martin’s clear “Wine of the Vintage” with the ultimate 98/100 point rating. A vintage-defying wine that the owners rate above their famous 2022. If you can’t find, or can’t afford, Lafleur or Pétrus, don’t worry, buy this.”
I am beginning to wonder if I should switch my vote to Montrose, which keeps knocking it out of the park and seems to be a contender for wotv every year now. Maybe Pichon Lalande should be elevated above Leoville Lascases too?
Guys
I’m staying out of the PC or PL argument as I thought the correct name was Chateau Pichon Longueville Comtesse De Lalande. At least that’s what the label says. All letters are in caps incl DE.
I voted for LLC but I would have picked LMHB if it was on the list. It isn’t specifically a second growth in any case nor is a Palmer which is up there in price and quality.
Other personal favs are Ducru B, PLCdeL and Montrose. I would have also said Cos in prior years and I’m surprised Jim didn’t vote for 1989 Lynch Bages.
I was in Amsterdam a few weeks ago and one wine shop had a double magnum of it in the window for E2000. Had it not been in a window I would have considered it - similarly I don’t buy fine wine at hot, stuffy airport shops. I almost went in to bargain the shopkeeper down but thought better it it…
