I believe it is better to drink young Bordeaux than old Bord

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:37 am

Had a 1996 Pontet Canet tonight.
I don't know if it was flawed or corked, it didn't seem to be damaged, but it was definitely underwhelming.
Who needs the drama of older Bordeaux.
Sure there are exceptions.
In general, though, give me Bordeaux that is under 10 years of age rather than Bdx over 10 years of age.

Tom In DC · Post by **Tom In DC** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:57 am

Where's the little pot-stirring icon?

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:52 am

JIm: You clearly like them young. I don't. So it's better for you to drink them young. Not for me. Chacun a son gout. I do agree with you that it's especially disappointing to open a bottle you've cellared a long time only to find it flawed.

robertgoulet · Post by **robertgoulet** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:47 am

*breaking news* this just in....Francois Audouze has just quit any future communication with the BWE...lol!!

Oh no Jim..first it was the out of left field high scoring, extracted right bank wine enigma (I thought u were not a right bank fan) and now this!!!

What have u done to our Jim???? Well I can agree that I have tasted plenty of delish under 10 yr. old bordeaux...but the real stunning or interesting bordeaux doesn't happen until after 10 years, i think it starts happening closer to 15years...case in point...no/none/nada under 10yr old bordeaux could ever taste as amazing like the surreal '82 Talbot tasted at 30 years of age....a fuqn mind blowing knee buckling experience!! So like u said their are exceptions, but if it's an epiphany wine like the Talbot than hell, look for me to be chasing that experience at any opportunity.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:18 am

So Jim, for you, the best part of Elvis Presley carreer, is before he starts to sing?

Red Bordeaux are always good, but I guess I prefer them young too, between 15-25 years old.

Nic

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:38 am

Nicklasss wrote:So Jim, for you, the best part of Elvis Presley carreer, is before he starts to sing?

Candidate for post of the year.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:47 am

Jay Winton · Post by **Jay Winton** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:06 pm

OTOH, the 96 Grand Puy Ducasse I drank the other night was youthful and threw not one bit of tannin when decanted. Stellar!

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:46 pm

That`s a priceless post Nic. Second for post of all posts!

RDD · Post by **RDD** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:55 pm

You need to go drink an 82.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:16 pm

He Who Shall Remain Nameless and I like young Bordeaux.

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:11 pm

It is complete. The He Who Shall Remain Namelessification of young master Jim is complete. Cue the Carmina Burana!

hautbrionlover · Post by **hautbrionlover** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:01 am

I had the '96 Pontet Canet three weeks ago, my first bottle of a case plus that i've had for 12-15 years.
We opened a '96 Lagrange at the same dinner.
The Lagrange was singing, the best of many bottles i've had. (Unfortunately it was my last bottle.)
I thought the Pontet Canet was good, but it was clearly eclipsed by the Lagrange.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:13 am

Thanks Jim for the controversial post.

I contend that far too many people needlessly drink their Bordeaux too old.

I can remember having a 25 year-old Bordeaux that was much too young.
But for every experience like this, I've had 20 lacklustre, indeterminate wines that have been keep too long.

They have lost their fruit.

Like all matters of taste, there is no right and wrong. But since hitting a wine's ideal peak is far from sure, I'd far rather err on the young side than the old side.

Alex R.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:57 am

Alex, Jim put the expiration date at 10 years in his original post. Just so we're all on the same page, is that the time frame you're referring to, or are you shifting the conversation to 25 years, which is really a different question? Is it your experience that the majority (95% if your 20:1 comment was serious) of the Bordeaux you've drunk beyond 10 years have been past their best? If so, my next question is whether your experience has been the same with non-classed growths vs. classed growths.

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:05 pm

I like 'em all ages, including right out of the gate, and that includes the subset (diminishing?) of wines that are traditional, backward or whatever. Admittedly I've not had any truly ancient wines, the oldest being about 30 years, but those few were delicious and interesting (actually that is perhaps the most redeeming feature of Bordeaux for me, their intrinsic interestingness which I ascribe to vaguerires and imperfection of vintage/growing season). About that though, it is impossible to say would they have been "better" younger, since I did not have those same wines at some earlier time. And I would add that I think many tasters write off wines way too early. My only thumb rule though is to avoid the Bermuda Triangle period into which some if not necessarily most Bordeaux seem to disappear. Depending on the vintage this can start somewhere in the mid to late single digits of age and last a seemingly long time. Or, like "travel shock," which I personally have never experienced (in a wine of course) it could be just a figment of my imagination (but I don't think so). My only other hesitation about timing is not to die--suddenly or otherwise--while waiting for a wine.

Roel · Post by **Roel** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:53 pm

'82 GPL in 2014 ... '03 Pontet on release
I like 'em young and old.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:21 pm

The way they make wines these days makes them much easier to taste when young. There were so many examples on the trip:

2012 LLC, 2011 Pontet Canet, 2010 Pichon Baron for example.

But the operative word here is <taste>. The tannins are so much more refined, but they are still there - wearing an Armani silk suit rather than a denim jacket sawn off at the sleeves.

If you had to sit down and <drink> a bottle of these wines it might be a different proposition.

An example: the 2010 Corbin tasted fab. When I got home I popped the bottle I bought, and it was hard work. It took me three days to drink it.

Top flight Bordeaux is at its most awkward aged 5-10 in my opinion. I err to liking them older.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:12 pm

I really enjoyed 2003 Pontet Canet on release, before it shut down, even to drink a few glasses. But I think in most cases Ian's comments about taste vs. drink resonate best with me.

For me, a Bordeaux's raison d'être is to age into something greater than the sum of its parts when young. I may kiss a few frogs by waiting for that tertiary magic, but to me that's the quintessential Bordeaux experience. At 5-10 years, I'd rather drink a Napa Cabernet. Not only because the Napa wine is often as good or better at that age, but because of the lost opportunity cost of opening a Bordeaux so young. There just isn't as much to sacrifice with a young Napa Cab (with apologies to exceptions like Montelena Estate, Ridge Monte Bello, etc.).

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:20 pm

I'm sipping on a 1996 Lynch Bages right now. I liked it better at ages 4 and 10.
But, as you say, DavidG, it's what makes the world go round.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:34 pm

Although, I will say this 96 Lynch is coming along with some air.
This is still very youthful to me.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:24 am

If I had to drink a classified Bordeaux from a good year at age 2-5 vs age 10 or even 15, I'd opt for the younger age. But I think great Bordeaux takes at least 20 years to really shine, sometimes 25-30 years. The 86s were dissed and folks were losing faith and then they hit 22 years old (in 2008, NYC) and the magic arrived. The same thing is starting to happen with the 95s for my money. The best of the 96s, 98s and 00s are still improving or need more time (though the cru bourgeois are drinking well). Many 89s are still getting better.

Of course, there are early drinking years like the 99s and 04s and some vintages (reportedly) never shut down like the 82s and some of the 85s and many 1990s (though I bet they are better today than from years 10-15+).

There's young, closed, ready and mature, and I'll take mature any day, but young might come second depending on the vintage.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:56 am

I agree to wait 15 years minimum, and 20-25 years for having the best, from the excellent and best vintages. But like Many, I don't have too much patience, so it is very hard.

This is why medium vintages exist, can be open a little bit earlier.

That 2010 Château d'Armailhac tonight is excellent, but it will be more complex and glorious in 10-15 years. But a niçe quality for that wine, very "Pauillac" in mouth.

Nic

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:14 am

When you start talking 20-30 years, now you're talking my language. The magical complexity is there, and the fruit, though transformed, is still a part of it. That's what classed growth Bordeaux is about.

robertgoulet · Post by **robertgoulet** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:08 pm

Pop a '99 d'armailhac and u tell me when should we start drinking our Bordeaux?

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:34 pm

I wouldn't be shocked to see tertiary stuff in a '99 d'Armailhac.

robertgoulet · Post by **robertgoulet** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:46 pm

Yes David...Or a '98 la grave a pomerol...both are increds

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:33 am

David,

I owe you an answer.

For a start, Jim’s controversial post was an excellent idea. A little pot stirring to get the blood flowing

.

In fact, the issue Jim raises it at the heart of what appreciating fine Bordeaux is all about.

Obviously, there is a basic disagreement as to what the word "Bordeaux" means.
But let’s go on the assumption that we’re talking about great growth wines.

There was discussion of 99 d’Armailhac on this thread. I had the 99 Mouton Rothschild last week. It was past its best in my opinion.
What is my opinion based on? As always, the balance between fruit and tertiary complexity.
I like *both*. But as I get older, paradoxically, I prefer the vital fruit to the aged aromas or, rather, I avoid whenever possible waiting until the latter overshadow the former.

There are 61 Médoc great growths. Some of these wines are in a category by themselves, especially the first growths. But I’m finding, for instance, that most 2000 great growths are square in their drinking window. Not Mouton, not Latour. I have bottles of each and will age them for much longer. But my experience to date with *most* of those 61 estates from the year 2000 says "Go for it".
There is, of course, the notion of plateau. And a wine that is in its prime today may still be very enjoyable 10 years or more from now.

I think we can agree that the notion of "peak" (hotly denied by François Audouze) does exist.
Your notion and mine are different, but not radically so.
I can appreciate wine that I think is past its best, but that you think is just right or even too young.
Conversely, I think you would still enjoy a wine that was short of its peak (by your definition).

I was at that tasting in New York of 86 great growths that Patrick refers to. I thought most of the wines were ready to go, belying received wisdom in some quarters that they still need more time.
However, I also thought the wines had the staying power to maintain their peak for quite some time.
This is, in fact, the beauty of Bordeaux: its very long ageing curve.
We may disagree about the top of that curve, but that’s not such a big problem

.

The BWE tour last month was an occasion to drink many young wines. It may have peruaded people that you don’t have to wait forever to enjoy the stuff…
We all have our likes, dislikes, and prejudices. For me, vintage Port was previously a 20 or 30 year proposition. But when I went to the region of production, I was bowled over by how voluptuous and sensual these wines can be young.

There is no arguing about taste. And although our notions of peak may differ, we both strive to hit that magic moment, that G-spot

)))))))))))

All the best,
Alex R.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:51 pm

AlexR wrote: There is, of course, the notion of plateau. And a wine that is in its prime today may still be very enjoyable 10 years or more from now.

I think we can agree that the notion of "peak" (hotly denied by François Audouze) does exist.
Your notion and mine are different, but not radically so.
I can appreciate wine that I think is past its best, but that you think is just right or even too young.
Conversely, I think you would still enjoy a wine that was short of its peak (by your definition).

...

This is, in fact, the beauty of Bordeaux: its very long ageing curve.
We may disagree about the top of that curve, but that’s not such a big problem .

There is no arguing about taste. And although our notions of peak may differ, we both strive to hit that magic moment, that G-spot )))))))))))

All the best,
Alex R.

Nice post Alex, and much that I agree with, particularly the well-stated bits above.

I too like wines with that vital youthful fruit profile. As well as ones with a preponderance of the tertiary components that are over the hill to many palates. It depends on my mood. When I think back on my peak wine experiences, there are some Harlans and Sine Qua Nons and even some Screagles and baby vintage Ports in there. There are even more Haut Brions and Lafites and Gruauds and Talbots.

We agree that there is no right or wrong here.

My response to Jim's excellent discussion- and thought-provoking post is a very personal one. When I want that tertiary stuff, Bordeaux has a much higher probability of delivering it than say Napa. So for me, the highest purpose of the Bordeaux in my cellar is to age it until it has the chance to deliver those sensations. I'll take the chance on a few duds, and I rely on my friends here and elsewhere to let me know when it's time to either reap my harvest or cut my losses.

When I want a youthful, vibrant fruit-dominant wine, and I don't mean to give the impression that that's an inferior experience or a rare occurrence, I'll open a Napa cab. Because the odds of those bottles developing the Bordeaux magic is pretty low. So I'll drink the Calis young while I let the Bordeaux mature. It's not that I don't like young Bordeaux (except when it's shut down/dumb). I can enjoy them as well as the next guy, but I'm hoping the bottles in my cellar are headed for something I like even more.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:49 pm

I just cracked open cases of 2004 Clerc Milon, 2002 Branaire Ducru, 2002 Sociando Mallet, and 2004 La Lagune and transferred them to the racks.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:51 pm

Thinking hard about opening the cases of 2002 Smith Haut Lafitte as well as 2003 and 2004 Lafon Rochet! And 2004 Malescot St. Exupery and 2004 SHL!

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:45 pm

Jim, the forwardness of the '03s in Bdx induced me to open my case of '03 Lagrange. Lucie grilled quail to welcome me back from the UK and I popped one to go with it. The bouquet is compelling and the taste has some leather to go with the sweet fruit. Tannins are soft with food but get coarser by themselves. stefan 92. Lucie 93.

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:44 pm

The 03 Lagrange was pretty much universally vilified on release it seemed. Not necessarily by the pros but by a number of us and many others as I looked at older CT notes. Personally while accepting it as atypical I thought it was quite good then, and especially my newer-word friends could appreciate it. I haven't had one in a few years and should probably try one soon.

When we talk of waiting 30 years to enjoy a wine personally I see that as a drawback and not a plus. This is one reason to like the 03s in my book as, starting from an admittedly atypical base in many cases, many of mine seem to have developed all the complexity of much older wines rather sooner than is typical. I would mention the 03 GPL here as another basically hated wine that is drinking beautifully my last two bottles.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:04 pm

I may have to try a 2003 Pontet Canet, I thought it was open and ready for business when we had it last month at the estate.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:16 pm

Art, Lagrange, like du Tertre and La Lagune, is one of those under the radar Bdx that rarely disappoints me. I agree that new world wine lovers might like the '03 because of the sweet fruit. But this wine does not resemble a CA Cab.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:23 pm

I also liked the 2003 Château Lagrange, opened at my brother's place last years. I would even say excellent to impressive as I was expecting something very ripe/roasted, and it was not.

Nic

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:21 pm

Art, having to wait 30 years is a drawback, especially when you factor in the duds. There's plenty of good drinking starting around 10 years, even if the magic is just starting to show. My problem is that even though I've now been at this for over 30 years, I have had trouble resisting the urge to drink them as soon as they start to open up. I just wish I were more successful at following my own advice.

robertgoulet · Post by **robertgoulet** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:40 pm

Though, I will agree I have tasted many great drinking bordeaux's at age 10 or less....including 2 BWE WOTY

2009 giscours
2004 SHL (one of my favorite wines)

but if u seek the holy grail of what Bordeaux can really become, well then friends, u must wait.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:43 pm

Bobby G, should I crack open my case of 2004 SHL now or 5 years from now?

robertgoulet · Post by **robertgoulet** » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:47 am

One now and every year from now!!! Do it!!!!

I have 2 left...I had 6 but they were so good...not sure what state this wine is in, please report!!