2005

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:30 pm

Parker has completed his 2005 panel update, and covered a huge spectrum of wines. Maybe 500 or so.

Lots of unusual, smaller wines were included, which usually doesn't happen with the retrospectives.

I think his key quote is

Nevertheless, this vintage looks strong and impressive at age ten. I do believe it is eclipsed in quality and consistency by both the 2009s and 2010s, but only by a relatively minor margin.

It seems like suggested drinking windows have been extended for some of the estates I care about.

No doubt merchants will be going crazy for the next week or two.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:40 pm

From 2005 I have cases of Duhart Milon, Brane Cantenac, d'Issan, La Tour Carnet, Carbonneux, and Haut Bergey, off the top of my head.
Oh, and some Burgs too.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:57 pm

I have not tasted many of them in recent years. Upon release we did our smaller panel, and I found my notes from the UGC event, but not much follow up.

Life, marriage, moving (lots!), career change, children, ill parents, ill pets, 7 exams, and all that got in the way.

It does not strike me that there are lots of mispriced wines out there in the market place from this year, anyways.

So the notes give some guidance as to when to consume (I seem to have some over the hill stuff) but the ship already sailed when it comes to reloading.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for the 15 vintage, a strong dollar, and a 14 futures campaign that I do not believe is going as well as the cheerleaders suggest/insinuate.

Pehaps that will temper the spirits.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:16 am

I under bought in 2005; from only 10 estates did I buy half a case or more, the fanciest being Pichon Lalande. I underestimated my longevity. I've been thinking about backfilling on this vintage, but now this MFing Parker has come out with his report that will drive up prices.

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:14 am

I guess I bought "enough" 2005 at the time, all of it QPRs, such was my sticker shock on the name brands. It was only a couple of years later that I realized I had not purchased one classed growth in that vintage and landed a case of HBL to keep up appearances. It's a nice wine too but let's face it having HBL is barely keeping up appearances. At this point I doubt I would be looking to add more 2005, or of anything although the urge creeps up every now and then. If I were to add it would have to be a "special situation," likely from an inside baseball (or inside BWE) vintage.

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:16 am

stefan wrote:I under bought in 2005; from only 10 estates did I buy half a case or more, the fanciest being Pichon Lalande. I underestimated my longevity. I've been thinking about backfilling on this vintage, but now this MFing Parker has come out with his report that will drive up prices.

Yeah, before it's all over he is apt to have more farewell tours than Garrison Keillor I bet. Some guys just can't call it quits and be done.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:33 am

Looks like Parker marginally down graded many wines from his last set of scores issued in 2008, especially on the Left Bank. Not a big downgrade, but lots of wines dropped 1-4 pts in this retrospective. He doesn't acknowledge it, but he seriously upped the drinking windows on most of these wines from the often silly early windows he gave in 4/08 (many QPRs which are still young and brooding today were supposed to be consumed by 2015 or earlier in his original notes).

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:24 am

I remember the debate here on BWE when the wines were first offered and then released. Some like SteveH thought them too acidic and tannic to come around, but they also had the fruit and concentration for others to be gung-ho. Or was it extract, with its negative connotations, rather than concentration? I believed RP and bought broadly, a lot of 4s and 2s, mostly of stuff that wasn't too expensive. Prices went nuts and I didn't even consider any first growths, but I splashed out for a few pricey wines.

Other than a few bottles drunk within a year or two of release, I haven't opened a single one. I planned on giving most of them a few more years before starting to pop corks. I don't much care about the RP scores going up or down a few points other than as fodder for discussion. The wines are still the wines. But I am curious about the drinking windows being extended. Has he pushed out the start dates and advised that most of these need to be held longer?

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:54 am

A quick tour through the notes and it looks like start dates have been pushed out as well as end dates.

And scores seem to have trended down just a bit for those "fine Northern Medocs" (with a few exceptions), and to have trended up a bit on the right bank (again with exceptions).

One wine that has generally been panned by drinkers, and a source of Parker criticism, Lascombes, went from 95 points and a drink window out to 2043 down to 88(?) with an unenthusiastic note and a drink window ending in 2015.

robertgoulet · Post by **robertgoulet** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:15 pm

Wow on the lascombes....I have to disagree, but I believe there is quite a bit of bottle variation with this wine...I tasted it and liked it, it's nothing profound but it appeared to be margaix-like for me, soft, elegant, hints of margaux berries...but others like Orlando Bobby had a different experience...he found a total over oak mess....I had 3, one of the bottles was consummed by the Mrs. when i was out of town, her report was very detailed and descriptive ...she said it was 'Good'...lol......Not sure when I will open my last bottle

What's the word on Pavie....did the score go up? I hope so, therefore I can sell my Magnum while the scores are hot!!!

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:25 pm

Wow indeed. I thought the 2005 Lascombes was absolutely stunning.

jckba · Post by **jckba** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:07 pm

I deleted my post as I am not a lawyer versed in copyright law nor am I a paying erobertparker user.

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:19 pm

Looks like a clown show to me.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:45 pm

And yes to DavidG - it seemed to me that maturity plateaus have been lengthened.

I also observe with the plethora of smaller wines covered, which normally have lifespans of maybe 10 or so years, that many are suggested as having much longer potential.

If that is broadly true of wine making changes, then perhaps that extends to the 09's and 10's that are still out in the marketplace.

Maybe one have more confidence in buying the (still pricey) satellites for the longer haul.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:59 pm

Yes, we usually delete these listings.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:06 pm

I don't understand the mechanics/logistics of conducting a panel of 500+ wines including micro production ones.

DId they lay all these down expecting to do a 10 year reprise?

Or did the producers proffer up library selections?

Some of these seem very unlikely to be in normal channels at this point.

And true to prior form, Soutard not reviewed, which is probably for the better all in all.

robertgoulet · Post by **robertgoulet** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:32 pm

My Pavie goes from 98 to100!! Check is in the mail...from one Perse to another's Purse

or should I say murse! I kid I kid...anyway, I guess this assists me in shedding my '05 mag

Roel · Post by **Roel** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:51 pm

I find this not interesting. 05 is a great vintage and I have some, but 09 and 10 are more 'my thing'.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:06 pm

What do those numbers on the right signify?

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:15 pm

The 2005s are a good vintage to backfill on now prices have come down. Will these scores move the market? Who knows, I doubt it.

This is a guy who just rated 2012 D'Issan and Haut-Bailly 96 points. Prophetic or early onset of senility? Personally I would have rated them both 92. So he is on to a good thing on the 12s, but may be over egging the pudding.

I picked up Belair and Sociando for a song. Likewise Pichon Baron for a good price. LLC unfortunately is still quite pricey.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:24 pm

Comte Flaneur wrote:What do those numbers on the right signify?

Estimated current pricing of said wine.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:37 pm

JimHow wrote:Wow indeed. I thought the 2005 Lascombes was absolutely stunning.

"Generally panned" is probably too strong a phrase. I've seen some highly negative comments from prominent AFWE palates (too ripe, too sweet, too oaky, too modern, no sense of place), but it has a 92.5 avg and 93 median CT score based on 328 notes. I am a skeptic when it comes to comparing wines by avg CT scores that are just a few points apart, but somebody likes the stuff. I've got 4 bottles in the cellar and have yet to pop one. Might need to remedy that.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:35 pm

I drank my only bottle some years ago and enjoyed it. But no idea how its holding up now.

There have to be some unhappy campers at the estate, probably trying to send replacement bottles over for retasting.

Lascombes very consciously (under their HF ownership) was trying to make wines tuned to get good scores on release.

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:56 pm

AKR wrote:Come on folks - stuff like the below stretches the bounds of 'fair use'.

I deliberately (when starting this thread) only cribbed one select quote from the article. Didn't feel like it was fair to publicly post it verbatim.

And yes to DavidG - it seemed to me that maturity plateaus have been lengthened.

I also observe with the plethora of smaller wines covered, which normally have lifespans of maybe 10 or so years, that many are suggested as having much longer potential.

If that is broadly true of wine making changes, then perhaps that extends to the 09's and 10's that are still out in the marketplace.

Maybe one have more confidence in buying the (still pricey) satellites for the longer haul.

jckba wrote:For those interested, inserted below you have an alphabetical listing of the scores for each of the wines included in the report.

COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL REMOVED BY MODERATOR MAGIC

Geez Arv, Jckba deleted his post, now you have to delete yours.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:40 pm

I amended mine....your turn!

jckba · Post by **jckba** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:31 am

Stefan - one of the points I was going to make after posting the scores was that if you were looking to add wines from the left bank, most of them did not really change all that much so I am guessing that the pricing will pretty much stay the same except for the normal price appreciation that begins to factor in as the wines enter early maturity and supplies start to dwindle.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:53 am

I had the feeling that that futures pricing has been pretty rich 2004+ onwards, enough so that most people probably didn't 'make money' when all things are considered (time value of money, opportunity cost, default risk of vendors, chance to decide after tasting etc....)

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:28 pm

Agree, the Chateaux have taken a lot of profit out of the futures game. There are always a few wines that spike in price after a 100-point Parker upgrade, but that's a crapshoot. With Parker's semi-retirement, it will be interesting to see if that influence fades. We should be able to tell in short order if any of the newly anointed 2005 100-pointers get that price bump. Someone posted that Cheval Blanc jumped something like 1000 GBP a case in London when the RP scores leaked a day early.

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:58 pm

Well I memorized all those scores because the are so important to me. Try deleting that!

Jeff Leve · Post by **Jeff Leve** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:49 pm

AlohaArtakaHoundsong wrote:Looks like a clown show to me.

Huh? Can you explain what this means?

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:19 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
AlohaArtakaHoundsong wrote:Looks like a clown show to me.
Huh? Can you explain what this means?

Hey Jeff - just out of curiousity - what are the mechanics of conducting a 500 wine vintage reprise? It seemed like these were tasted by appellation (that what it seemed like from the notes, where there were many references to 'best of St Expensive' commune) That can't possibly be done on one day right? Do professionals do this all by themselves, or do you all meet up to do this? And of course there is the sheer cost involved....how is that covered? I can't imagine that subscriptions alone can cover glories like Lafleur, Petrus etc.

Jeff Leve · Post by **Jeff Leve** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:56 pm

AKR wrote:Hey Jeff - just out of curiousity - what are the mechanics of conducting a 500 wine vintage reprise? It seemed like these were tasted by appellation (that what it seemed like from the notes, where there were many references to 'best of St Expensive' commune) That can't possibly be done on one day right? Do professionals do this all by themselves, or do you all meet up to do this? And of course there is the sheer cost involved....how is that covered? I can't imagine that subscriptions alone can cover glories like Lafleur, Petrus etc.

Arv... I am aware of how Bob put his 2005 tasting together. But I am not going to discuss it. I can however, tell you what I do for EP tastings and how I put together my 2005 tasting notes for about 150 wines.

For EP. I go to a few, specific negociant tastings that are pre arrranged for me. That covers a lot of wine. I hit a few appellation tastings for the press. I also visit about 60 estates. That is close to 500 wines tasted for 2 weeks. I move slower than most, because I have the time and enjoy having fun lunches and dinners with friends when possible.

For my 2005 retrospective, which you can read here: http://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/win ... 100-wines/

It took a while. Most were visits to properties coupled with wines from my cellar and those from my friends. All those wines were either purchased on release. So, when you factor in that the chateau bottles have never been moved, all wines tasted have perfect provenance.

In Bordeaux, there are a few days when I taste close to 100 wines in a long, 6 hour day. I prefer tasting less. 20-50 is more my speed.

As for what others do... There is one massive tasting that takes place in London for the trade and the press that a lot of well-known people attend. I am not sure what others do beyond that. However, other thana the big London tasting, I do not think that many people taste that many wines. Aside from The Wine Advocate, no other writers come close to the number of wines they taste. I'm not positive, but I think my site could offer largest number of wines tasted every 10th anniversary, and for EP as well, we also rank in the top 10, with close to 450 wines tasted.

Did this answer your question?

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:44 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
AlohaArtakaHoundsong wrote:Looks like a clown show to me.
Huh? Can you explain what this means?

I assume this is just Art's inner psyche responding viscerally to this viniferous version of the Rorschach test (now deleted). Personally, I saw the ennui of the universe in that wine blot.

jckba · Post by **jckba** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:56 pm

So one of the things that struck me as odd regarding the scores was how 10 of his 12 perfect wines came from the right bank (Angelus, Ausone, Bellevue Mondotte, Cheval Blanc, L'Eglise Clinet, Lafleur, Larcis Ducasse, Pavie, Peby Faugeres and Troplong Mondot) with the remaining 2 coming from Graves (Haut Brion and La Mission Haut Brion), which begs the question, where is the love for the Medoc!?

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:17 pm

jckba wrote:So one of the things that struck me as odd regarding the scores was how 10 of his 12 perfect wines came from the right bank (Angelus, Ausone, Bellevue Mondotte, Cheval Blanc, L'Eglise Clinet, Lafleur, Larcis Ducasse, Pavie, Peby Faugeres and Troplong Mondot) with the remaining 2 coming from Graves (Haut Brion and La Mission Haut Brion), which begs the question, where is the love for the Medoc!?

Yes, no fireworks (95+ pts) for the northern Medoc except for the Firsts, LLC, Cos and Pontet Canet. Most of the love was definitely Right Bank, with Graves and Margaux soaking up much of the remainder.

The bigger question is does this really matter, are we inclined to agree? Personally, the Bordeaux that most excite Parker these days tend to leave me a little cold, so like Art's 89-pt sweet spot, I tend to prefer Parker's Bordeaux between 90-95 pts. But the Bob can be hard to get a good read on, as he gives big love for old school stalwarts like the 2005 Sociando Mallet. Overall, I'm favorable to a Medoc year that leaves Parker a little reserved, as it says we have classic Vin de Garde.

The big take aways I think are that this vintage is confirmed as excellent across all levels and it will be longer lived than he initially thought (both big no-duhs for me). The rest of this retrospective just shows the significant noise and capriciousness inherent in giving wines points on an exacting scale.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Blanquito wrote:The big take aways I think are that this vintage is confirmed as excellent across all levels and it will be longer lived than he initially thought

+1

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:35 pm

jckba wrote:So one of the things that struck me as odd regarding the scores was how 10 of his 12 perfect wines came from the right bank (Angelus, Ausone, Bellevue Mondotte, Cheval Blanc, L'Eglise Clinet, Lafleur, Larcis Ducasse, Pavie, Peby Faugeres and Troplong Mondot) with the remaining 2 coming from Graves (Haut Brion and La Mission Haut Brion), which begs the question, where is the love for the Medoc!?

I just picked up a bottle of the '05 Bellevue (for $100 minus my special customer discount). It was the last one on the shelf at my favorite local store (probably kept in their fine wine room since release).
Right now it is the oldest, and I think the highest rated, Bordeaux in my cellar.

jckba · Post by **jckba** » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:56 pm

Racer Chris wrote: I just picked up a bottle of the '05 Bellevue (for $100 minus my special customer discount). It was the last one on the shelf at my favorite local store (probably kept in their fine wine room since release). Right now it is the oldest, and I think the highest rated, Bordeaux in my cellar.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Bellevue is not the same property as the Perse owned Bellevue Mondotte. Your Bellevue which is 100% Merlot still comes from a great plot of land located next to Beausejour Duffau and across the road from Angelus. I have a lonely btl of the 2000 Bellevue if you ever want to get together and double the fun. Where in CT are you located again?

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:38 pm

So many chateaux with similar names.

I bought this bottle based on CellarTracker notes and local availability, not because I know anything about the property.

Home is in Bolton, business in Manchester.

We're attending an offline in West Hartford next Saturday.
The St Emilion was a consideration to bring, but the organizer prevailed on me to provide the champagne, so I bought a bottle of '04 Veuve Clicquot La Grande Dame too.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:43 pm

Bellevue and all its variants as well as Belair and its cousins have to be the most vexing bottles to buy if one is buying based off a review.

FWIW the southern Medoc, Belle-Vue is one of the few petit verdot heavy wines in the region, and worth trying.