2023 Bordeaux En Primeur purchases

[Claudius2]

Guys
Sorry to distract you all after watching the debate (if it can reasonably be called that).
I finally ordered some 2023 EP stock.
These days, being well into my 60's, I am not bothering with wines that take 20-30 years to mature unless I can be buried with them and somehow enjoy them in the afterlife. As I am too pragmatic for that stuff, I just ordered some fairly priced wines.

The Singaporean dollar (SGD) is relatively strong at the moment, and the Bourdelais are aware these days that the market for fine wine is hardly booming. So the cost to me is no more and in some cases less than what it cost me for the 2009 indent, the first I bought here in Singapore. Despite that, the Sg govt does its best not to stop people from drinking, but from cashing in by adding three separate taxes to wine, and these taxes are in fact multiplicative. So you even pay GST on import duties and levies. Nice work.... That is why a supermarket Rioja like CVNE's Cune Crianza costs E6-7 in Germany yet SGD37 here (about E35) unless on clearance. There is however a mountain of unsold stock in Singapore and an importer and retailer I know keeps offering rather expensive wines from Australia, NZ and some European producers at huge discounts - I mean $500 cellar door wines for $69 or so.

Had not the prices been attractive, I would not have bought. But this time I really will have to stop EP purchases. I DID say that after 2016, and managed to ignore 17 and 18, then bought both 19 and 20. Oh well.

So I have looked for reasonable value not trophy wines and frankly I find it hard now drinking wines that cost SGD1000+ a bottle. Even worse, at a Christmas dinner last year, a friend's 20-odd yr old son googled the price of Haut Brion and then showed everyone that it was worth over a grand. Yeah, thanks. He did the same for a 1er Cru white Burgundy - a snip at only SGD245 according to google. Little did he know it actually cost me E32.70 plus freight. Though I did buy half a pallet.

Anyway, I have bought the following:

Pauillac
Grand Puy Lacoste
Haut Bages Liberal

St Emilion
Beausejour
Barde haut
Dominique
la Confession (Izak rated it 96 so I hope I do too)
Clos O'oratoire
La Fleur Cardinale

St Julien
Branaire Ducru
Gloria (never bought this before - so a bit of an experiment. Seems to be well rated this year)
Leoville Barton. I was going to get Langoa Barton but changed my mind.

St Estephe
Tronquoy (Lalande now dropped from the name). I have recently tried the 2015 and 2016 and have been surprised by how nice they were albeit still pretty tannic and young.

Haut Medoc
LL (okay, I now realize I'm not supposed to write this in full)
Cantermerle. Again, izak and others are saying that this wine is shining brightly these days. It was at the same price as Gloria in any case, so I'll hope for the best.

Margaux
I have bought less from this appellation compared to prior EP campaigns as some of the wines I regularly buy like Rauzan Segla, Giscours, Dufort Vivines etc are now getting more expensive. Some only bought:
Malescot St Exupery
Prieure Lichine - one of the very few wines I buy all every time I opt for EP. Lowest cost classed growth I bought.

I have tried to bargain the seller down on a few wines, notably Canon and Rauzan Segla, so he may help out.

cheers
Mark

[greatbxfreak]

Claudius2,

Nice collection of wines you purchased. Here are my suggestions;

Pauillac

Grand Puy Lacoste
Haut Bages Liberal

I would skip both and buy Pichon Comtesse instead. Eventually, Pichon Baron as well.

St Emilion
Beausejour
Barde haut
Dominique
la Confession (Izak rated it 96 so I hope I do too)
Clos O'oratoire
La Fleur Cardinale

Here I would skip Clos de L'Oratoire and buy Beausejour Becot instead. The latter is so much better value and is ridiculously cheap.

St Julien
Branaire Ducru
Gloria (never bought this before - so a bit of an experiment. Seems to be well rated this year)
Leoville Barton. I was going to get Langoa Barton but changed my mind.

St Estephe
Tronquoy (Lalande now dropped from the name). I have recently tried the 2015 and 2016 and have been surprised by how nice they were albeit still pretty tannic and young.

Why not Montrose?

Haut Medoc
LL (okay, I now realize I'm not supposed to write this in full)
Cantermerle. Again, izak and others are saying that this wine is shining brightly these days. It was at the same price as Gloria in any case, so I'll hope for the best.

Perfect choice!

Margaux
I have bought less from this appellation compared to prior EP campaigns as some of the wines I regularly buy like Rauzan Segla, Giscours, Dufort Vivines etc are now getting more expensive. Some only bought:
Malescot St Exupery
Prieure Lichine - one of the very few wines I buy all every time I opt for EP. Lowest cost classed growth I bought.

Brane Cantenac is a no-brainer here. I would skip MStE and PL.

Additionally,

Pomerol
Bourgneuf!

Pessac Leognan
Carmes Haut Brion!

[Claudius2]

Izak
Thanks for the comments.
I have a few ideas and questions for you.

My first comment is that I've been mindful of cost and already have quite a lot of wine in storage.

The PL was no more than some well known Cru Bourgeois wines and I have liked this wine even back to the seventies.
okay, it isn't Ch Margaux but for current price it's still a deal. Malescot is also a fairly good value at the same cost as Branaire Ducru.

I've had a bit of a love-hate relationship with Brane Cantenac. I had some nice wines and some really ordinary ones.
Once bitten twice shy I think.
It is I think a bit expensive this year - it is E21++ more than Cantenac Brown - is that difference justified? You seemed to like both.
If so I'll take a punt on it. Otherwise will take Cantenac Brown.

Bourgneuf simply isn't available here. None of the importers I buy from had it.
If its a special order, price is too high. Oh well.

Carmes Haut Brion is over SGD200++ thus the landed cost is likely to be SGD250. That is about the same price here as Beausejour.
I DO recall you saying that a prior vintage (2019I think) was a "dream of a wine". I am less of a fan of most Pessac/Graves wines as i'm finding that I only really like the very best like HB, LMHB etc.

I have sent an SMS just now to the importer pleading for a better price on CHB. Interestingly, some reviewers rate CHM above HB and LMHB this year, so I m not questioning its quality. I think I have only drunk it once or twice in all my years, probably a few decades ago.

Okay I have added Beausejour Becot, but Close O'ratoire is cheap so I'll stick with it. It is a more commercial style but a pleasant Merlot based wine.

In St Estephe, I would love to buy both Calon Segur and Montrose.
The prices are now very high and frankly, I can buy good back vintages (like 2009, 2010,2015) of both for the same price as the EP cost for each.
In the case of both, I am also worried that they will outlive me and arguably for some time after that.

Cheers
mark

[Claudius2]

Okay
I’ve just added Carmes Haut Brion and Cantenac Brown as well.

Reseller offered a small discount on the more expensive wines.

Cheers
Mark

[greatbxfreak]

Mark,

Good!

If you can't get hold of Bourgneuf, then try to get Clos L'Eglise.

Are the wines from Ets. J-P. Moueix is available in Singapore because this company buys 70% of production from Bourgneuf every year. It is less than 70 Euros.

Cantenac Brown is modern style.

[Claudius2]

Izak
Clos L'Eglise is roughly the same price as Carmes HB and Calon Segur.
With a forced choice, which would you take??
cheers

[jckba]

Mark,

Just one question from my end and that is, since you are not buying the top wines from the vintage why buy now?

I think many of the wines you are interested didn't really have all that successful of a futures campaign (granted with no official numbers this is an assumption based on what I see) and will very likely end up on the shelves next year for about the same price (at least here in the US) or maybe even less.

[greatbxfreak]

Mark,

Carmes Haut Brion.

[Claudius2]

Izak
Ok, I have sent an SMSS to ad this wine too.
Thanks again
mark

[Claudius2]

Mark,

Just one question from my end and that is, since you are not buying the top wines from the vintage why buy now?

I think many of the wines you are interested didn't really have all that successful of a futures campaign (granted with no official numbers this is an assumption based on what I see) and will very likely end up on the shelves next year for about the same price (at least here in the US) or maybe even less.

Hi
Singapore is a completely different market than North America or Europe.
Once the EP offers end, the importers are reluctant to bring in more stock, with the exception of a small volume for the occasional retail sale.
Singaporeans do not buy much fine wine retail - it tends to get sold EP, or the imported stuff later seems to be more often sold via restaurants.

So the few places which do offer non-EP stock, typically sold to -walk-in customers by the single bottle - are VERY expensive.

the same was the case when I lived in Australia.
Normal sales prices were typically twice the EP price, and again, sold mainly in single bottle lots, which the EP orders tend to be in bulk. However, you do pay up front for wine you won't see for some time.

I understand the point you make, though the retailers will not touch non-EP stock if they cannot mark it up.

I rarely buy good wine retail.
For Burgundy, I either import it myself from Beaune, or buy at auction, and only if the auctioneer can promise me that provenance is good.
The retail prices are insane.
For example, I have bought Robert Chevillion 1er Cru NSSG's at auction for under SGD100 and seen the exact same wines for over SGD500 retail.
C'est la vie.
cheers
Mark

[Comte Flaneur]

I didn’t buy any because the math(s) didn’t work, with a return of over 5% in cash, but the closest I came to pulling the trigger was with Pichon Lalande, which was well priced. I think we discussed this in another thread?

[Nicklasss]

Limited my purchases to

3 Batailley

3 Talbot (i am interested back as the wine is now managed by Jean-Michel Laporte, ex La Conseillante)

3 Calon Segur

I thought about Pichon Lalande, but went for Calon instead as i really think Calon Segur is at the top of it game, a style that i’m a great fan (complex classical medium density claret) and the best qpr of all Bordeaux since 2008. In a way, it is the wine that has the most in common with the disappeared Magdelaine…

[JimHow]

Calon Segur has unfortunately gotten pricey. Interesting comparison to Magdelaine. I imagine I'll stop buying at some vintage, 2020 seems like a good place to stop but I doubt it! I'll have to do the Jim How Age 80 Equation, i.e., what vintage at age 80 will be at the ten year mark, that will be my last vintage. Kind of a little mind twister, I wonder if Joe or Orange could calculate it.

[JimHow]

So if my math is correct, my last vintage purchase will be in six years, purchasing the 2028 vintage when it hits the shelves. The 2028 vintage will be my last vintage, because that is the last vintage that will have at least ten years of aging when I am 80 years old. Okay! This is a liberating calculation.

[JCNorthway]

I like your mindset for planning, Jim, but I doubt that Stefan is using the same "formula." My last vintage purchased (one case only) was 2020, which will be 9 years old when I reach 80.

[Claudius2]

Jim
I’m a little older than you - seemingly only a year or two - and I think most Bordeaux needs more than ten years after EP campaigns. So I hope that I can hold on to taste the 23s at their peak, which is at least till 2038.

I’m now starting to drink the 09s and 10s and they are still young and vibrant and I’ve been surprised that St Emilions such as Dominique, La Confession, Clos L’Oratoire, L’Arrosee and Monbosquet are still young. The Pessac Leognan wines seem the most ready much to my surprise.

I’ve drunk both 15 and 16 Tronquoy Lalande in recent days are both were still firmly tannic and need more time so even the better Cru Bourgeois wines are holding well these days.

The prices of Bordeaux these days - except the Premiers Crus, garargiste wines and various other top rated wines - are relatively good value these days. I just think it is a pity that for the petit Chateaux and the numerous growers and producers of less famous wines (AC Bordeaux, Entre de Mers, Bordeaux Superiore etc) times are very hard in a world which seems more interested in beer, spirits, alcohol-pops.

I get lots of data from the Aust Wine Research Institute which is now showing contraction of world demand and even wine consumption in Australia fell last year for the first time for some decades.

Cheers
Mark

[JimHow]

I’m in a hunker down mode right now, Mark, with the imminent return of Orange. I see world instability on the horizon, which will filter down to such urgent matters as the wine world. I have my property and assets and wine cellar in order for the onslaught. At my current slowed rate of consumption I currently have more than enough wine in my cellar until age 80, which is the age, morbidly, past which I hope not to live very long. In drinking 2014s, 15s, and 16s in recent years it is reaffirming my sentiment that Bordeaux coming out of hibernation at ages 7-10 offer great fruit and also developing complexity. Robert Parker, Alex Rychlewski, Jean-Nicolas Maltais, and I have no problems drinking Bordeaux at the 8 to 10 year mark. I’ll buy modest amounts, like one or two bottles each of my favorites, from vintages like 2022, 2023, and we’ll see what 2024 to 2028 have to offer. As you know I’ve gone heavily into 2019/2020, which I truly have to believe will be the last of my big purchase vintages. This will leave me with large quantities of 2014, 15, 16, 19, and 20, which I believe will leave me in good stead until age 80, while also leaving me with the “modest sized cellar” to leave to my heirs, to which I join DavidG in aspiring.

[JimHow]

I like your mindset for planning, Jim, but I doubt that Stefan is using the same "formula." My last vintage purchased (one case only) was 2020, which will be 9 years old when I reach 80.

That sounds just about right, Jon, I think the 2019/2020 vintages are going to be drinking nicely at age ten.

[DavidG]

Some time back I committed to stopping with the 2016s. I have no problem enjoying Bordeaux at 10, but find them better at 20. The 2016s will hit 20 as I hit 80. I skipped 2017 (easy) and 2018 (not so easy).

Then 2019 came along and I caved. Outstanding vintage, and between COVID and threatened tariffs the first vintage in a long time that made futures purchases financially attractive. They’ll be 17 when I’m 80. If I don’t drink them my daughter will figure out what to do with them.

The 2020s sound great as well, but I had to draw the line somewhere. I’d already pushed my commitment to stop at 2016 out 3 years. It’s now been 4 years since I’ve bought any recently released Bordeaux. If I live longer than expected, I’ll take a lesson from Stefan and hit the auction market.

[Claudius2]

Guys
It is pretty clear that most of us on this forum - particularly the longer standing members - are ageing fast and I say that not as a joke but as one of life's realities. I am actually amazed that there are some here into their 70's who are still buying!

I bought about 30 full cases of 2009 and 2010 classed growths, I have a few cases of 2014s and 15's, about ten cases of 2016's, around 6 cases of 2019s and 4 cases of 2020s. And smatterings of older vintages back (only) to 1995 as the older stock was sold off when I left Australia. I also have quite a lot of red and white Burgundy from 2005 to 2020, plus other regions, including Australian whites (mainly chardonnay and some rieslings), Cabs and Shiraz. There are also various Spanish and Italian wines in storage. So I am also trying to be realistic.

it is fine to drink any wine whenever you want. I am rather unusual in ageing NV Champagne and Australian Chardonnays for some years. Yet I love the aged characters of Chardonnay (incl in Champagne) and these days, I avoid highly acidic wines from anywhere.

I have historically kept classed growths for 15-25 years from vintage, thus I'm now starting with 2009 and 2010 right bank wines, and will start on the left bankers soon, with a few exceptions like Calon Segur and LLC. Even the wines from lesser vintages (eg, 1984) have often surprised me how well they age, and in some cases, I have drunk the wines too young and only appreciated them when sipping the last bottle or two. 1994 was an example. It was never a great vintage, though somehow, the wines were much nicer at twenty years than I expected. I bought 4 cases EP (at a relatively low price) and mistakenly drank most too young. The last handful were consumed after I moved house in 2004. I was surprised that the seemingly modest fruit was shining, and the hardness and dryness had given way to balanced, quite tasty wines. A few examples were Lagrange, GPL, Lafon Rochet and Talbot. On the other hand, Domaine Chevalier 1994 seemed to just get worse with age. A long story...

Jim
I DO understand your point about instability, and point out that the USA is arguably in a better place than many other regions in the world.
France is now in turmoil. Much of Europe is in poor shape economically and politically, the war goes on in Ukraine and Gaza, there are never ending conflicts in many other places.

From the perspective of Singapore (or SE Asia for that matter) there is a bigger worry than that is getting uglier.
China is getting more belligerent by the day, and there are now endless skirmishes in the South China Sea, threats to Taiwan and also to neighboring nations such as the Philippines and Vietnam. This belligerence, including new waves of anti-western and anti-foreign rhetoric, has been exacerbated by Covid and more recently, trade disputes and the economic downturn now happening. I won't give you the details but the published data on economic growth is ignored by everyone incl the Chinese based property company Wendy works for.

Since the arrival of Xi Jinping over a decade ago, the optimism and hope of the people has changed. The concepts of a more open society, good foreign relations and improved prosperity have slowly disappeared - there is now a common view that the best days (arguably from early 1990's to around 2015) have gone. Threatened with such thoughts and feelings, Xi has ramped up nationalism, his own personality cult, blamed foreigners and threatened just about everyone.

Several years ago, I argued here that Xi would not be stupid enough to invade Taiwan, or attack merchant fleets or other vessels. He is now doing the latter. He staged a takeover of HK with relatively little opposition and now seems to think that he can do the same to Taiwan. He may also decide to attack the Philippines (not necessarily a full-scale invasion). His takeover of HK (despite agreements with the UK to not do so until 2047) is similar to the Russian annexation of parts of Crimea - if you can get away with one action, then you can go further.

If there is an expanded conflict involving the west, it would be where China either attacks a neighboring state, most likely Taiwan, or forms even stronger partnerships with Russia. Both are scary, and I have re-evaluated my views of China and Xi. Xi is preparing China in several ways for greater conflict and sees expansionism as his political legacy.

As for the USA, the view in SE Asia is how come the US cannot find better candidates than an old guy with cognitive and other health issues, or an ageing windbag who talks big and thinks small. The sad part of this - from a SE Asian perspective - is that China and Russia are seeing it as a sign that the US is a fading power which is beset with internal disputes. Though similar views are often held about Europe, and the last French election isn't helping.

cheers
mark